Let's Talk

Growing the Inclusion Pie

My guest Jody Day is the British founder of Gateway Women, a global friendship support and advocacy network for childless women with a social reach of about 2 million people. Jody came in to talk to me about the implications of diversity and inclusion in the workplace for non-parents.

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hello there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show. I'm Toby Milton, and today, I'm joined by Jodie Day. Now, it's a really interesting story, how Jodie and I first met, so we met on LinkedIn. I posted out a post about parenting, caring responsibilities, and what organizations should be thinking in terms of inclusion of parents and families and those with caring responsibilities, and Jodie replied to me on chat messenger saying, "Well, actually, what about those people in the organization who are non-parents," and it got me thinking actually, because I hadn't even considered that as a kind of another form of diversity and inclusion, and so Jodie and I had some really interesting follow-up conversations, and I've certainly learned a lot from her in the conversations that we have had, and I'm pretty sure that you're gonna learn a lot from our discussion today.

Toby Mildon: But it just reminded me that even as a diversity and inclusion consultant, where I talk to lots of senior people working in HR and lots of businesses that I don't know everything, I'm on a learning curve myself, and I've even got my own blind spots because I was putting a post out there about what businesses should be doing for parents and those with caring responsibilities, but in fact, how does that impact on people who are not parents or don't have such caring responsibilities? So that's where Jodie comes in. So Jodie is a British founder of Gateway Women, which is a global friendship support and advocacy network for childless women with a social reach of about 2 million people, and founded in the UK in 2011 and is headquartered in Ireland now. She's the author of what many professionals consider to be the go-to book on the topic, "Living the life unexpected, how to find hope, meaning, and a fulfilling future without children."

Toby Mildon: Chosen as one of the BBC's 100 women in 2013 and awarded the UK Digital Woman of the Year in 2021, she is a global thought leader on female involuntary childless, she's a psychotherapist, she is a TEDx speaker, a social entrepreneur, a founder and former board member of Aging Well Without Children, and a former fellow in social innovation at Cambridge Judge Business School. So often referred to as the voice of the childless generation, she is also an ambassador for both the world childless week, she now lives in Ireland with her second husband, his mother and their dog, where she's writing a novel which features a childless heroine, of course. And she nurtures the emerging Gateway Elder Women Project For Conscious Childless Elder Women. So Jodie, a huge amount of work that you do and achievements.

Jodie Day: Thank you.

Toby Mildon: It's so lovely to be chatting with you today. So I suppose I've given a bit of an intro, but could you just let us know a bit more about the number of people who are actually involved and impacted here?

Jodie Day: Yeah, absolutely. But before I do that, I'd just like to say thank you, Toby, for having me on the show, and thank you for modeling that flexibility in that you... Found out about a blind spot and you engaged with me, really un-defensively about it, and we've had such a great conversation, and it's just such a great way to model your profession for your profession how... As a psychotherapist, I'm very impressed with that honestly.


Toby Mildon: Thanks. Thanks Jodie.

Jodie Day: Yeah, the numbers of people involved often come as a bit of a shock if this is sort of, even if you're in this category, because we're kind of missing from public view, so we often don't know how big our numbers are. So I've got three different sources really. Noon, which is a... This is a very recent study, it's called the Noon Research Study, which was done by Noon, which is an organization headed by Eleanor Mills. Now this is a very specific study of ABC1 women aged 45 to 60 in the UK. It found that nearly a third of professional women have no children, a third, and out of that 60% are childless and 60% are child free and we'll talk a bit about what that means later. And according to the office for national statistics, approximately one in five women aged 45 and over in the UK have no children. Now, early data coming out of the ONS, number of women who've had their first child at age 30, this was very recent, and it was all over the press, show that 50% of women in the UK aged 30 have not yet had their first child.

Jodie Day: This is once again, double their parents generation. The average age of first birth in the UK is 30, so this is a very, very significant number, and so, the UK would appear to be on track to go to one in three women who are non-parents by mid-life, which is the same as in Germany and Japan. We are looking at a massive rise in these numbers coming up, and one more slightly kind of side tracky bit of data, but very interesting, I recently did a TED Talk about being single and childless, and I came across this UN data, which was actually about a number of women married and/or in union. So I reversed it to get the numbers who weren't married or in union, and what we're seeing that over the last decade of my work, I've seen many, many more women within Gateway Women who are childless due to not having a willing or suitable partner during their fertile years, and the data would seem to match this.

Jodie Day: So once again, average age of first birth, but right now, the number of women who are single in the UK has increased from 9% to 35% in that age group since 1970, and actually there are similar huge increases across all categories, and actually to be both single and childless or child-free in the workplace is also an issue, but we can talk a bit about that later, and I just wanted to mention that Manchester Metropolitan University have a study which came out this year called, Complex Fertility Journeys and Employment. And the principal investigator, Dr. Crystal Wilkinson, who I worked with has pulled out an extraordinary... This is kind of... I'm gonna quote from the study 'cause it's extraordinary.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: "While many organizations now recognize that DEI-based needs to attend to pregnancy, maternity and parenting leave issues for their employees. There is evidence that traditional inequalities are being perpetuated in terms of wider fertility concerns where organizations have started to recognize the social impacts of new fertility technologies, organizational policy and HR responses are often not sufficiently nuanced to be helpful. Particular gaps appear in support for line managers and for those whose complex fertility journeys end without children." So, this is... There's been quite a lot of noise recently and it's really needed, around supporting fertility journeys. But once again, it's rather like the conversation I had with you, what's in the shadow of that? What's not being thought about?

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: And that's where our conversation comes in.

Toby Mildon: Well, I am glad that we're having this conversation because it is really eye-opening. And as I mentioned in the opening, I had my own blind spots and yeah, I've been working with a client recently where we've been talking about what they should be doing to support working parents in their organization. But actually we weren't talking about what's the impact on those who are not parents or have caring responsibilities. I know that the language that you use, you often talk about non-parenthood rather than childless or child-free. Can you just tell us a little bit more about those labels and the distinctions?

Jodie Day: Absolutely. I choose non-parents because it's more neutral. Childless is generally taken to be those who wanted to parent.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: And it hasn't been possible for, well, I list 50 reasons in my book and there are many, many more. And child-free is tend to those who've chosen not to parent. And there is a kind of an idea that, that is a binary, but actually it's much more of a spectrum. And research has shown actually the reasons for being childless or child free in research actually overlap by 60%.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: So, it really is a spectrum. Whereas I think non-parents, although there are differences in the internal journey, if you go through a grief journey to accept your childlessness, rather than it being a personal choice, actually in the workplace, many of these structural issues that impact you will be the same and a lot of the supports and adjustments that need to be made may be broadly similar. So, I prefer non-parents because it's describing a category rather than a sort of the subjective nature of someone's experience.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. I like non-parents as well, actually, because when I was working for Deloitte, I was looking at our parental policies and the language that we were using for example, and we were saying that policy should not, say mothers and fathers, for example, or maternity or paternity leave, it should be parental leave. Recognizing that people who do have families come in all shapes and sizes, heterosexual couples, same sex couples, etcetera, etcetera. So, talking about non parenthood is quite good 'cause it's... I think it kind of balances out. You've got parents and non-parents.

Jodie Day: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important because it also slightly professionalizes it. It moves it slightly away from the personal and moves it more into an employment category, a social category, which I think that can sort of take some of the heat outta the conversation as well.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. And I can now visualize myself having conversations with clients saying, "Okay, let's talk about how we support parents in the organizations through policies and procedures and culture and things like that. And how else are we going to support those non-parents in the organization." So, you mentioned pronatalism a lot in your work that you do. And I was wondering if you could just talk to us a little bit more about what you mean by this ism.

Jodie Day: Yes.

Toby Mildon: Haven't really come across that one before.

Jodie Day: Well, it's really interesting because it's like sort of asking a fish how's the water and the fish will say, "Well, what's water." Because pronatalism is the water our society swims in. And we start to learn about it very, very early in life. And what it means at its core it, it's a valuation system between parents and non-parents. So, that basically someone who has has children and biological children in particular will be seen as an adult of more value than someone who does not. And as a fully more fully realized more grown up human being. So, it's not to say that parents don't have value because they do, but it's sort of a valuation system between parents and non-parents, it's the mums go to Iceland. It's the, as a mother, it's the idea that you put as a mother in front of a statement and suddenly it has more moral authority, even if it's about washing powder than if you don't. No one says as a childless woman, that's a kind of a lean back statement. People are like, "Whoa, where's she going now?" But as a mother is a sort of a lean in. So, there is a sort of an unconscious cultural evaluation of parenthood. And because it's so entrenched in our society, because it's about making sure that people have children make sure that mothers have worth, so they go ahead and do it. [chuckle] It seem natural because it's so embedded. So, pronatalism basically means pro-birth. Nothing wrong with that, except when it becomes a negative valuation system.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. And then as you're describing that, we then develop all sorts of biases, don't we?

Jodie Day: Absolutely.

Toby Mildon: And when I do, when I talk about bias, really what we're talking about is kind of preferences in favor of, or against something really. We all have biases. It's very natural how our brains are designed through social conditioning. And so, yeah, I can actually... Now you've explained it to me, I can really understand how that bias occurs. So, you've done a really fantastic Ted Talk, which is called The Lost Tribe of Childless Women. So, first of all, I recommend that the person listening to us right now go, watch your TED Talk after they've listened to this episode, of course. But you said that women without children in the workplace is the biggest diversity issue that HR hasn't heard of. So, what do you think is going on with that issue impacting such a huge number of people and it's still not really being discussed in the workplace?

Jodie Day: Well, number one, pronatalism, because pronatalism makes us... It makes our blindness towards those in the environment who are, non-parents invisible.

Jodie Day: As it was to you. So it's very natural, it's like we don't need to think about those people, but it's almost an unconscious bias mechanism, not only do we not need to think about them, we don't even need to think about not thinking about them. We're just completely invisible, that idea. And also something called disenfranchised grief, which is even the grief of childlessness is invisible by society. It's a... Now, this is for people who had wanted to be parents and it hadn't been possible. Now they experience a form of grief, which is called disenfranchised grief. I gave a lecture at York University to their Grief, a Human Emotional Experience project, which is online as well, which is called some disenfranchised grief, and it's basically a living loss that society dismisses. So there is a kind of societal idea that people who don't have children who wanted to, really just get over it, that can't be grief, you didn't lose anything. Really, what are you wallowing about? There's no recognition that if you wanted children, not having them is a living loss that goes right across the course of your life and impact all of your relationships and identity.

Jodie Day: And it's not like you're ever going to completely get over it because you're always going to be childless, you're not going to be a mother or a father. You are not going to be a grandfather and father. There are many and this... And when you die, your line dies with you. It is an extraordinary existential, social and identity loss if you wanted to parent. So that is also dismissed by society, so hence dismissed in the workplace. Like, sometimes when I talk to people in HR, they go, "Childlessness? That's a thing?" Like, "Oh really, why do we need to care about that?"

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: And there's something else going on, which is... This is my own theory of looking... You know coming on my depth psychology background, that I think there is something... I mean, human beings, as far as we know, are the only sentient species, that is aware of its own mortality. But we don't wake over it up every morning thinking about it. We have a mechanism which allows us to kinda get on with our daily life without thinking about death all the time for most of us. But I think that Childlessness, and that includes all non-parents in a way has a whiff of death attached to it, because it is that thing it's that end of the line. I think there is some kind of unconscious mechanism, where Childlessness goes into that same place as the part of our unconscious that allows us not to think about our own deaths all the time. It sort of has a way of being pushed out of mind that is quite extraordinary when you consider the numbers that are social mechanisms, social norms and unconscious mechanisms at play. So I think it's also really important that if someone is listening to this and is feeling... Gosh, I can't believe, I never thought about this. I think we are trying to break through an enormous societal, internal and external barrier here.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I think it's really interesting 'cause something you said, even in the last 15 minutes that we've been talking. I've actually realized that I'm a non-parent, and it's weird how actually, we've had a few conversations before we sat down to do this recording, and It hadn't really struck me as such, 'cause I'm a non-parent because I'm gay, and I'm in a relationship with my partner and we don't want children.

Jodie Day: Yes.

Toby Mildon: It's a conscious decision.

Jodie Day: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: And so I'm a non-parent. And you know you were saying about that kind of that loss or that whiff. I was doing my will recently, and sitting down with the financial advisor and he was saying, Okay, so he was doing the family tree basically, and I was like, "Well, I don't have any children to pass things on to." Yeah, and that was quite a realization at the time that the system is set up to say, "Well, who's your offspring?" You know, whom are you gonna family tree.

Jodie Day: And that to me... Make this assumption that there will be there. I remember, when I did my will did and I was sitting in my solicitor's office and she gave me this form, and it had about three pages pre-printed.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: For children and grandchildren and things like that, and I was so shocked.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: That it was just presumed that I could fill three pages with my, [chuckle] descendants.

Toby Mildon: Rather than providing some alternative options or suggestions.

Jodie Day: Absolutely. Yeah.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I mean, that's an example of how very often inequality is systemically baked into processes and policies and procedures and things like that.

Jodie Day: Systemic... My favorite word, have it for breakfast every day. Yeah.


Toby Mildon: Yeah. So, what resources would you recommend for HR and diversity teams to access to address their biases around non-parents in the workplace, and why they need to be holding that in mind?

Jodie Day: Thank you. Yeah, well, I guess... You've mentioned one of them, I've done two TED Talks. Do watch them, One's 18 minutes, one's 13 minutes, so you can get a lot of information in that time, and my book is a good resource if you want to go deeper into the lived experience of childlessness rather than non-parenthood. But an organization that I'm involved with is called, which is new and unique. It's called The New legacy Institute, which is coming out of California. It's got a weekly radio show, really also addressing the intersectionality of this issue, because non-parenthood, is a category that includes so many people and touches so many lives in so many different ways. And Christine, who's the founder of the New legacy Institute, is really aiming to look at that in the radio show that she has every week. I mean, I'm very proud that I'm gonna be one of their first members of their advisory panel.

Jodie Day: So I would say check out the New Legacy Institute. Newlegacyinstitute.com and explore their work. There's a great podcast called, The Full Stop podcast, just Google that on any podcast platform that is three Childless people, including one man. Men are incredibly underrepresented in the Childless, child-free space because the pronatalist assumption that all women will have children is much more dominant, but the fact is, is that men who wanted to be parents and that hasn't worked out also experienced grief, but men have been socially conditioned not to experience their grief. So they actually disenfranchised their own grief. So it's really important that the full stop has got.

Jodie Day: One of the three presenters is a guy, it's a great episode called Childlessness at Work, I'd lead you to. There's my lecture on disenfranchised grief. If you go to York University, grief. A study of human emotional experience, you'll find my lecture and on my website, gateway-women.com, you'll also find a full transcript of that, because I'm a very fast reader, and I have to get through a lot. And I do like a good transcript. So yeah, that's just a few that you can sort of start to get your teeth into.

Toby Mildon: So yeah, those are all fantastic resources. And I'll make sure that we link to them in the article, particularly that accompany this interview. So yeah, any podcasts that I publish, there's a companion article that I upload to my website and put out on LinkedIn and things like that. So it's worth checking that out. I really liked what you were saying around the intersectionality of this topic as well. And I was thinking if I can just indulge you a little bit.

Jodie Day: You can.

Toby Mildon: I was just thinking about my own personal situation 'cause I was born with a rare genetic neuromuscular disability. And I think growing up with that kind of condition, there's often this expectation on people in society and within the medical profession that disabled people can't become parents. Because as a disabled person, you have to be cared for. And then I didn't come out as gay until I was 29. And then I was thinking to myself, "Well, as a gay man I don't really want to have a... I don't want to have a family. That's my choice." And then interestingly, I've just started this new genetic treatment for my condition where I have to take medicine every day. And one of the first things that my doctor said was that they think that the drug could impact on things like sperm count. And we had to have a conversation about whether I wanted to become a father, which in a way was quite refreshing, because actually a doctor had not asked me that until I was 40, when I wanted to be a father. And if I did, whether I wanted to put sperm on ice. So yes, it's...

Jodie Day: But up until that point, the presumption had always been made, that that's the choice you wouldn't make. Yeah.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that whole intersectionality of... And now my brain's buzzing 'cause I'm now thinking, I'm talking from a disability, sexuality perspective. But what even if we look at things like race and ethnicity and cultures around the world, I suppose cultural norms of parenthood in different places around the world it's... This is a big topic, isn't it? [chuckle]

Jodie Day: Yeah. Welcome to the inside of my head. [laughter]

Toby Mildon: Yeah. So if you were able to ask people in HR or diversity teams for ideas on how to make the workplace inclusive for non parents, where would they start?

Jodie Day: Okay, one of my ideas is that, the protected characteristic I believe it's pregnancy, maternity.

Toby Mildon: Yes. Yeah.

Jodie Day: It's almost like I would invite them to expand their concept of that protected characteristic to one of what is called reproductive identity, which is something we all will have, a reproductive identity. And this is comes from Orally Athens, 2020 paper, reproductive identity an emerging concept published in the American psychologist journal. I think it's a really important kind of cognitive step to open our mind to the idea that whether you have children or not, whether you want children or not, whether you're able to have them or not, you have a reproductive identity.

Jodie Day: And I think that could start to maybe help to loosen some of the cognitive frameworks that maybe prevent us from engaging with this topic. World Childless Week, as you said, I'm an ambassador for World Childless Week, it happens in the third week of September every year. And it's amazing public facing website. It has stories and contributions from members of the public each day of the week has a different topic. And it would be great if that could have been included on organizational sort of resources, awareness days, intra-nets, just to start to bring that conversation into the workplace.

Jodie Day: Offer HR diversity and line managers unconscious bias training around pronatalist prejudice, to help them understand the issues facing non parents in the workplace. This is a huge issue within the whole field. And just you know, the unconscious bias field is also unconsciously biased. [laughter] It hasn't recognized this at all. But within that, I think it's really important to recognize that some of the people who may be struggling with these issues may well be the HR and line managers themselves. And they may often be managing complex fertility journeys, parenthood journeys, maternity journeys, parenting journeys, when they themselves are unsupported with their own situation. And I think we really need to think about what we're asking line managers and HR people to manage unsupported in their own situation. So that could be a really good first step to start...

Jodie Day: In a way putting those goggles on, and seeing the world through the eyes of someone who is a non-parent going, how would that sit with me? And also if your organization is becoming fertility friendly, which is kind of happening now, I gave a talk called the "F word at work," but with an organization called Fertility Matters at Work, talking about childlessness in the workplace. Because one of the things that is not really out there as public knowledge is the most likely outcome of IVF is childlessness. It's a 70% chance of failure or higher if you're older, yet what happens to those people in the workplace. And there of course, then there are many non parents who've never had fertility treatment, who maybe didn't want children and many other complex issues as well.

Jodie Day: But once again, we hear about the miracle babies, but we're not seeing how that's impacting those in the workplace, who may be might have wanted children themselves. And I'm gonna give you a link to a video which you can share all of that talk to that organization. And here's a really simple one. But goodness, this is one of my members when I asked them, "What would you like to happen?" This is the number one that always comes up, "Award holiday allocations on an equitable basis between those with and without children, including Christmas." Non parents have lives and families too and should not be discriminated against on this basis. This causes so much resentment. It's like "Oh, you don't need to have Christmas off. You don't have kids." You know?

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: Yeah. It's like... Like, I get first dibs on that, and it's like, "Well, that's lovely, but parenting and having a family was a choice, and I don't see why I should be discriminated against for your choice," you know?

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Jodie Day: It's a hot topic, it's a hot popping issue, but it needs to be addressed. And this is another big one that my members would love, "To make all maternity supportive activities, such as collections for baby showers, maternity leave parties, bringing a new baby to work visits opt in and anonymous." Now, this could be really simple. It could be but if someone is planning to bring their new baby into work, whilst they're still on maternity leave, they make an appointment with HR, they have a meeting room for it, everyone knows about it. Anyone who wants to go and meet the baby, can go and meet the baby. There is no shame to those people who are unable to do so or aren't interested in doing so, and they're not seen as kind of weird or cold or selfish or weirdos, but, you know, imagine if you're sort of grieving a miscarriage and someone just forces a baby into your face once you're at the desk.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, yeah.

Jodie Day: It's not about taking away any joy or any inclusion from parents, it's about thinking how other people in the workplace might be impacted by that, and to make both possible.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I think all of the above is fantastic advice, and I will certainly be sharing that with my clients. And I think for me, my takeaway is quite simple, really. Whenever I'm talking to a client about parents and family policies is to just say, "Well, what about non-parents?" I did a survey recently with a client, and we found out that quite a high proportion of their staff were parents. And we were having a conversation about that number being higher than we thought and what we should be doing to support those parents, but we weren't talking about the people who were non-parents, and I think for balance, we need to make sure that we're talking about both in the same conversation, and like you were saying, just sense-check against those policies of saying, "Well, what are the written or those kind of informal unwritten norms around things like taking time off over Christmas or taking time off over the summer, and is it fair and equitable between parents and non-parents?" So, no, I'm loving this conversation. It's... Yeah.


Jodie Day: Thank you.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, my eyes are just constantly being opened. Before you go, a question that I ask everybody is, what does inclusive growth mean to you? What's your thoughts on that?

Jodie Day: Well, thank you for that, and thank you for your wonderful book, which I really enjoyed and I will recommend as well.

Toby Mildon: Oh, thanks.

Jodie Day: Yeah, it's really clear and helpful, and yeah, I will be recommending it a lot. So I think for me, inclusive growth, thinking of the changing demographics of our society as birth rates drop and are projected to continue to drop, more and more employees in the workplace will be non-parents, especially millennials and Gen-Z, and they will expect and demand equitable treatment regardless of their reproductive identity. In my experience, and we talked about this before, when a new... And inverted commas just for radio. "When a new category begins to emerge in the diversity field, there can be a kind of resource poverty mentality that gets activated in those whose needs are already and often imperfectly being addressed, and I'm thinking of parents in the workplace. For example, parents who are often under-supported in the workplace, as are those going through fertility treatments or experiencing a complex path to parented and may be fearful that attention on non-parents will mean less support for them, especially as pronatalism fully supports this inequitable point of view, is embedded in our social structure, so fully it appears natural. But for me, inclusive growth means building alliances with parents in the workplace to reassure them that it's not about them having a smaller piece of the pie, it's about growing the pie bigger so that everyone can have a piece."

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Oh, Jodie, I love it. Thanks so, so much. Before you go, if the person listening to us right now wants to learn more about your work, 'cause obviously you've got loads of resources available, like your book and TED talks and website and things like that, so if they want to learn more about your work and they need supports for non-parents within their workplace, what should they do?

Jodie Day: I think if this is an issue that is impacting you personally, you might want to sort of follow me on Instagram, which is Gateway Women, or come to the website, or join the Gateway Women Community. All of the details for that are on the Gateway Women website. If you are interested in this from a professional point of view, and there may be an intersection between the professional and the personal, I would also recommend following me on LinkedIn. And everything is on my website, gateway-women.com. And yeah, I look to the conversations that I feel sure will arise out of this, not least with you, Toby, I sense. Yes.

Toby Mildon: Well, I think this conversation definitely has to continue beyond the half an hour that we usually have for [chuckle] podcasts, but...

Jodie Day: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, Jodie, thank you ever so much for joining me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation, and I'm really pleased that you reached out to me after I posted that comment about parents in the workplace and address my... As I said at the introduction, address my own biases and blind spots around parenting, and making sure that we are inclusive of non-parents in businesses as well. So, Jodie, yeah, thank you ever so much for joining me today.

Jodie Day: Thank you, Toby.

Toby Mildon: And thank you for tuning into this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show. I really hope that you enjoyed the conversation that Jodie and I had, and please do follow up with Jodie if you would like support personally or professionally through the Gateway Women website. And until then, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of The Inclusive Growth Show, which will be coming out very shortly. Until then, take care.


Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team head on over to our website at Mildon.co.uk.

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